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Poll

Backend needing improvements most urgently?

Posted by Yaba on Jul 4 2004

Yaba
editor
Home

X-Server	37%
Printing (Cups, LPRNG,...)	7%
Scanning (Sane)	4%
Filesharing (NFS, Samba, AFS,...)	5%
Filesystem (including mounting CD-ROMs, Automount,....)	6%
Notebook support (ACPI, Speedstep, Power Now,..)	15%
Additional hardware support	7%
Hot plugging (USB Devices, Firewire, Bluetooth...)	17%
Other	2%

Votes: 2563

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What comes after 'X'

by RavenSlay3r2 on: Jul 7 2004

Score 50%

RavenSlay3r2

I voted X. The X-server has been a workhorse for decades, but appears to be the least efficent linux/unix componet. The Mac's openGL desktop is really fast AND cool, but doens't support OpenGL.

As a user, I think we need a new GUI-server that works like X (and is backwards compatible to it) but does the same thing in OpenGL (or what ever is next) and does it more efficently.

This has been running through my mind lately, but i don't know much about it yet, so comments appreciated.

Ravenslay3r

Reply to this

Re: What comes after

by RavenSlay3r2 on: Jul 8 2004

Score 50%

RavenSlay3r2

I ment "but 'X' doesn't support OpenGL" or "mac doesn't support X-apps". either way - u get the idea.

Reply to this

Re: What comes after 'X'

by TimeRever on: Jul 8 2004

Score 50%

TimeRever

The whole X sucks... Why?

1. Crappy unbelivebly old widgets made this toolkit nonsense necessary, GTK, Qt, FLTK, all this for nothing but developer confusion and massive work duplication, if X has a decent native toolkit not only all apps would be toolkit unified but also faster.

2. Pretty bad performance, X eats up a lot of memory, I don't know if it includes KDE or not but it's a lot anyway.

3. X is hard to configure, we are limited to our distros tools to configure X, for example to configure a normal keyboard multimedia keys I had to mess with a lot of xkb files and write all multimedia keys to a file and in hexadeciamal format!

4. X doesn't support alphablending but I think everyone knows this already.

5. Anything else I may forgot to tell, but these are probably the top 4 reasons.

Reply to this

Re: Re: What comes a

by anton on: Jul 9 2004

Score 50%

anton

Check out the Y-Window system at www.y-windows.org. It is in very early alpha stage, but has many of the features people have mentioned here:

built-in widget engine

full alpha-blending (and possibly future OpenGL) support

plans for a built-in sound server

etc.

I too voted for X-Server, because the x-server really does need an upgrade. Although right now the y-window system is pretty much useless, it is only a matter of enough people working on it. And we really do need to merge the various GUI kits.

Other than that, the USB hotplug support and power management (especially software suspend) also need to be improved.

Anton Markov

*LINUX - MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU!*
Reply to this

Re: Re: What comes a

by imperator on: Jul 9 2004

Score 50%

imperator

1. Crappy unbelivebly old widgets made this toolkit nonsense necessary, GTK, Qt, FLTK, all this for nothing but developer confusion and massive work duplication, if X has a decent native toolkit not only all apps would be toolkit unified but also faster.
The crappy, ugly widgets you mention are not built into X. They are almost certainly Motif, which is just another toolkit like QT. X itself has no toolkit.

2. Pretty bad performance, X eats up a lot of memory, I don't know if it includes KDE or not but it's a lot anyway.
When the menory usage for X is shown, it includes all your video card's memory, so if you have a video card with 64MB of RAM, X will be reported as using 64MB plus it's usage of system RAM. That is probably what you are seeing. Either that or KDE's memory usage (KDE uses quite a bit of RAM). X is very light, on it's own.

3. X is hard to configure, we are limited to our distros tools to configure X, for example to configure a normal keyboard multimedia keys I had to mess with a lot of xkb files and write all multimedia keys to a file and in hexadeciamal format!
Config is the distros's job, not X's. It's not X's fault if some config program sucks.

4. X doesn't support alphablending but I think everyone knows this already.
It's being worked on. See freedesktop.org

Reply to this

Re: Re: Re: What comes a

by xam on: Jul 11 2004

Score 50%

xam

X is quite cool
but only if you'Ve got a hardware accelerator in your box.
i think that kde should have in future versions more OpenGL bindings (drop shadows could be drawn by the graphics card, ... -> Would be much faster then the software drawing we use now)

Reply to this

Re: Re: Re: Re: What comes a

by thomas12777 on: Jul 13 2004

Score 50%

thomas12777

x has no offscreen buffer, so simply using opengl is _not_ the answer to everything. (you cannot acces the other layers)
check fdo.org, you'll get (hw accelerated, depends on your gpu) translucency and shadow stuff.
the other way would be to port qt to run on open gl -> bad idea, as it would not run beneath gtk,tcl/tk, motif, etc. stuff (besides opengl has a 1024px texture limit -> you'll have to trick opengl by fracting the textures)

Reply to this

Re: Re: What comes after 'X'

by MxCl on: Jul 15 2004

Score 50%

MxCl
Home

Hmm, you have no idea what you're talking about do you?

Reply to this

Sound

by Matthijs on: Jul 8 2004

Score 50%

Matthijs

Don't know if i can rate this as 'backend' but I think that a 'universal' audio system must be implanted in linux.
I mean something like directsound in windows. So that _all_ programms work with it and u can listen to multiple sound sources.

(if this is offtopic, my apologize.)

Reply to this

Re: Sound

by maitre on: Jul 8 2004

Score 50%

maitre
Home

I find alsa is close to perfect. My OSS games like Quake 3 use alsa without issue, and native alsa support is also there for other games. I've got no complaints with it.
-maitre

Reply to this

Re: Re: Sound

by Yaba on: Jul 8 2004

Score 50%

Yaba
editor
Home

I guess Matthijs means the sound server. E.g. Arts or GStreamer.

To mess up a Linux box, you need to work at it; to mess up your Windows box, you just need to work on it.
- Scott Granneman, Security Focus
Reply to this

Re: Sound

by eean on: Jul 12 2004

Score 50%

eean
Amarok

But most people develop for *nix and not just for Linux.

This is the problem systems such as gstreamer and arts try to solve, so programs don't have to rely on the system having the right kernel.

Reply to this

Fonts under X

by Yaba on: Jul 9 2004

Score 50%

Yaba
editor
Home

What annoys me is the font handling under X. Why is it not possible to disable this stupid resolution stuff? It makes just problems, but I do not see any useful cases.

I use a laptop. First I did not set the -dpi parameter of the X-Server. Great... either tiny fonts or huge fonts, depending to which monitor the laptop is connected. OK, I fixed that. But xrandr is still useless. The initial font size is OK, but after resizing the screen, my fonts either become unreadable small or very huge.

Why isn't it possible to tell X to always use the same font size in pixels?

Who didn't had the problem with Netscape or Mozilla displaying either small or huge fonts?

To mess up a Linux box, you need to work at it; to mess up your Windows box, you just need to work on it.
- Scott Granneman, Security Focus
Reply to this

Re: Fonts under X

by uga on: Jul 15 2004

Score 50%

uga

the problem is your computer has no clue of the dpi resolution of your monitor. And unless you make more advanced monitor hw, I guess that's likely impossible right now.

The dpi problem doesn't only belong to the linux/X world, it also happens in the windows world. you just choose "use big fonts" and don't care about what it does.

Unless you tell X what dpi your monitor is, it has no chances of displaying always the same font sizes...

Also, iirc Netscape contains a selector for dpi resolution, which helps with this, now... that maybe should be brought to the desktop environment...

Reply to this

Re: Fonts under X

by MxCl on: Jul 15 2004

Score 50%

MxCl
Home

You have something configured wrong. Here font sizes are physically identical whatever resolution I use. Which makes font handling better than Windows for me.

Reply to this

hotplugh

by xam on: Jul 9 2004

Score 50%

xam

I voted for hotplugh because i think it laks on a KDE integration.
I'm thinking of a desktop icon for an insert USB HardDisk like in OS X or a message in the Systray like in M$ Windows (i prefer the Mac Version)

Well SuSE has done something like this (the drives:/ kioslave and the SuSEplugger but it doesn't work very fast, and not very good)

I wish that in future KDE Versions something like this will be realised

Reply to this

Re: hotplugh

by kairos on: Jul 9 2004

Score 50%

kairos
Home

Yes, you're right.
I even think, that the USB-support in SuSE8.2 was better than in 9.1.

<
kairos
>
Reply to this

Not sure about X

by vdboor on: Jul 11 2004

Score 50%

vdboor
KMess
Home

I'm not sure whether the X server needs such a bit rush.. It's true that we don't want to get behind Windows Longhorn, but a lot of people don't seam to realise what X can.. (why I don't like the Y-attempt)

With the network capabilities of X, you can play OpenGL games remotely over a switched lan..! (I managed to play tuxracer with 40fps; logged in my box with xdmcp. the GLX packets were sent over the X11 link) X also allows you to start multiple remote and local logins/sessions at the same system, something Windows requires an additional package for. I use these things a lot (whether it's Xvnc, x11 over ssh or xdmcp)

Things I love to see improve are the communication with backends (whether it's hotplug, alsa, sane, or auto-mounting). It's occurs to me that I need to dive in a console to fix the backend before the frontends work. I hope dbus solves a piece of this puzzle.
I don't have any complaints about cups, I used the webpanel to set up my printer, but also noticed that KDE had a really nice cups configuration module.! :-)

Reply to this

Re: Not sure about X

by cies on: Jul 12 2004

Score 50%

cies

D-BUS is supposed to 'fix' the communication with the backends.

This will take 0.5-1.5 year to get into the distributions, and then the backends will have to adopt it.

Reply to this

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Backend needing improvements most urgently?

What comes after 'X'

Re: What comes after

I ment "but 'X' doesn't support OpenGL" or "mac doesn't support X-apps". either way - u get the idea.

Re: What comes after 'X'

Re: Re: What comes a

Re: Re: What comes a

Re: Re: Re: What comes a

X is quite cool but only if you'Ve got a hardware accelerator in your box. i think that kde should have in future versions more OpenGL bindings (drop shadows could be drawn by the graphics card, ... -> Would be much faster then the software drawing we use now)

Re: Re: Re: Re: What comes a

Re: Re: What comes after 'X'

Hmm, you have no idea what you're talking about do you?

Sound

Don't know if i can rate this as 'backend' but I think that a 'universal' audio system must be implanted in linux. I mean something like directsound in windows. So that _all_ programms work with it and u can listen to multiple sound sources. (if this is offtopic, my apologize.)

Re: Sound

I find alsa is close to perfect. My OSS games like Quake 3 use alsa without issue, and native alsa support is also there for other games. I've got no complaints with it. -maitre

Re: Re: Sound

I guess Matthijs means the sound server. E.g. Arts or GStreamer.

Re: Sound

But most people develop for *nix and not just for Linux. This is the problem systems such as gstreamer and arts try to solve, so programs don't have to rely on the system having the right kernel.

Fonts under X

Re: Fonts under X

Re: Fonts under X

You have something configured wrong. Here font sizes are physically identical whatever resolution I use. Which makes font handling better than Windows for me.

hotplugh

Re: hotplugh

Yes, you're right. I even think, that the USB-support in SuSE8.2 was better than in 9.1.

Not sure about X

Re: Not sure about X

D-BUS is supposed to 'fix' the communication with the backends. This will take 0.5-1.5 year to get into the distributions, and then the backends will have to adopt it.

X is quite cool
but only if you'Ve got a hardware accelerator in your box.
i think that kde should have in future versions more OpenGL bindings (drop shadows could be drawn by the graphics card, ... -> Would be much faster then the software drawing we use now)

Don't know if i can rate this as 'backend' but I think that a 'universal' audio system must be implanted in linux.
I mean something like directsound in windows. So that _all_ programms work with it and u can listen to multiple sound sources.

(if this is offtopic, my apologize.)

I find alsa is close to perfect. My OSS games like Quake 3 use alsa without issue, and native alsa support is also there for other games. I've got no complaints with it.
-maitre

But most people develop for *nix and not just for Linux.

This is the problem systems such as gstreamer and arts try to solve, so programs don't have to rely on the system having the right kernel.

Yes, you're right.
I even think, that the USB-support in SuSE8.2 was better than in 9.1.

D-BUS is supposed to 'fix' the communication with the backends.

This will take 0.5-1.5 year to get into the distributions, and then the backends will have to adopt it.