FluiDE (New Computer Interfaces Discussion)

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Description:	https://sourceforge.net/p/fluide http://groups.google.com/group/fluide/ http://code.google.com/p/fluide/ http://code.google.com/p/fluide-attach/ This group is to discuss a new interface for Linux, and hopefully make one, based on top of Gnome or another desktop environment. The main goal of this interface will be to create an extremely natural and "out of your way" shell. All aspects of traditional interfaces will be examined to see if they are the best implementation for today. Reinventing the wheel may not be best in all cases, but what about when the wheel becomes obsolete? For example, the traditional menu first appeared around the 1980s! Things have changed since then. Of course, ideas on how to do it other ways will be subject to the same rules. Just because it is different doesn't mean it is better. What got me started thinking this way is when I saw this mock-up by Martin Gimpl: http://personal.inet.fi/koti/mgimpl/stripes/ Some of the ideas are very interesting! Also, with all the new interfaces coming out (Gnome3, Unity, Windows 8) it seemed like this would be the perfect time to try to start a new project. NOTE: Although I have the group set so I have to moderate who can join, I want everyone who wants to join to do so! I only have that as a precaution against spam.
Homepage:	homepage
Members:	31
Comments:	204

Created:	Jul 13 2011
Changed:	Apr 27 2012
Readability:	readable for everybody
Membership:	new members need admin approval

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Status of the project

by user333 on: Mar 23 2012

Score 50%

(This isn't about ideas. I'll get back to that later)

Should we move to the google group? Being on OpenDesktop makes us more visible, but with our discussions getting larger and more complicated, it's getting hard to follow threads.

As I have suggested before, we need to come up with a definite and realistic description of a protoype, so that we can find developers to create it. This prototype cannot have all our ideas in it, just the basic platform that we can build on. I don't think that our other discussions should stop, but at the same time we need to figure out what the basic shell will be like relatively soon.

I have ideas on what the shell would look like, but I want to hear you ideas. I think my panel system and Blender's window mangement would be a good base, because it is extremely flexible in many ways, but do you have other ideas?

A good and easy goal would be to complete a draft by July, and finilize it by August.

Please understand that I'm not trying to be the 'dictator' of the project; I'm just trying to keep things moving. Everyone in this group is equal, so if you don't like my ideas about this all please post your own =)

But that does bring another problem, though. If we do eventually have 20+ active members, there will have to be some leaders or everything will be a mess.

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Re: Status of the project

by MasKalamDug on: Mar 23 2012

Score 50%

MasKalamDug

Well, I am sort of semi-dropped out and have no real investment in this any more. I agree with the long-range goals but not with the short-range ones.

I think it is of little value to rush to prototypes and the like until we know exactly what we are doing. So far I can detect no consensus - except maybe on dark frames around lighter-colored workspaces and even that can be overdone by putting things in the frame - I find print of any color on a black background almost unreadble.

I don't know if I can help at all in my frame of mind but I will continue to hang in there - at least for a while.

I agree that Google groups would make these conversations much easier to carry on - but I observe a rather wide-spread prejudice against them (usually in favor of Usenet).

Re: Re: Status of the project

by user333 on: Mar 23 2012

Score 50%

So basically are you saying we should come up with a good and complete plan first, and then work on creating it? That probably would be wiser that my plan.

Maybe I didn't explain everything very well, though. I meant to say (which I didn't at all) that we should create a 'playground' or 'prototype' to quickly test our ideas on(an HTML+Javascript base would be ideal for this). Then we create the real thing once we figure out what works best.

You sounded a little upset, so I hope a didn't make you mad. Again, I'm not a dictator here. You are just as much in charge as anyone else, so if you are not happy with anything, say so, and also say how it could be done better ;) You are very pratical in how you think so it would be stupid for us not to listen to you since you have good reasons for your oppinions.

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Re: Re: Re: Status of the project

by novomente on: Mar 24 2012

Score 50%

I promised to create some TVc mockup. Unfortunately I have not much free time to devote to it but I'll try to create it as soon as possible. I was also thinking to create an application for creating Desktop Environment mockups. The technology of both (TVc and mockup app) would be HTML4 or HTML5 + JavaScript.

I was also thinking of Macromedia/Adobe Flash because I found out technique how to run trial program of Flash (Creative Suite) on Linux for never ending time. Since David talks about having trouble with viewing YouTube (flash) videos, I decided to use HTML+JavaScript instead.

Re: Re: Status of the project

by user333 on: Mar 23 2012

Score 50%

I forgot to mention the google groups. I'll try to see if there is a better way that is still free.

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Re: Re: Re: Status of the project

by novomente on: Mar 25 2012

Score 50%

To the Google Groups. All of us know that we probably need a better communication capabilities of our group on openDesktop.org site. One option is to move to Google Groups. But I think (remember) that it doesn't allow to save files or message attachments. More over there would not be many open source developers or creators attracted by our group. So I think good idea would be to find another service.

Second thing is to ask some questions. Do we need our group to be wide spread public? Or we need our group to be somehow invisible to millions of eyes? Do we need to publicly display our ideas and solutions to prevent some money hungry eyes to use our solutions as some patents or somehow to disallow our project to move forward?

Important question is what people we would like to attract? Developers, Desktop Environment designers and desktop professionals? Script coders? Artists? etc.

Answers can make our movement of the project easier.

Maybe (to have more members) it would be good not to only discuss in some place and wait for new members but also to look for them somewhere and attract them. In the meantime we could have some good place to discuss and work together and welcome new members there. In the end of this comment I'm adding some links to look at.

To the dictating. The good word is "leadership". I don't think, Mike, you are a dictator. You only want to move the project towards to have something visible instead of having it only in the brain. I understand that. It's better to have something like mockup or prototype to work with because it gives you the practical point of view and you can then find out new ideas and solutions. That's why I try to make the universal mockup (or maybe the HTML+JavaScript app) to work with (with good documentation) - at least with some minor functionality.

But back to the subject matter. Speaking for myself my talking could also sound as I was a leader. And simply as you would like to move things forward, I'm doing this - I stop little bit the prototype progress because of to have more complex solution before the prototyping. The reason is not to hurry with starting prototype development because later we could find another better solution with which we can drop the prototype to a trash. But I understand to have some prototype to work with and play with (as I mentioned above).

David on the other hand seems to me very experienced and has very practical points of view. He sees what we can't see and he does not hurry to develop something because he more thinks before some real work. Reason is not to program some code and later finding out that the code could be better because of new prototype approach, ideas, or even programming techniques and problem solutions.

Speaking of leadership - each of us is a leader in some way and in some doing. I think that the work and approach of all of us is not competitive but complementary.

In the future the project would need a leader. But still we are only 3 most active members here and each of us can push others or lead others to concentrate or focus on something.

For example today I wasn't planning to devote the morning to look for a better place for our group communication. But I found out it is a good idea for many reasons so I did it. Since you offered, Mike, to find it out, I'm leaving in the end the results of my search. Most of the links are pages to read and more to search. But the first link is a final result of the place we could be happy with and I think it's worth to look at it:

https://fusionforge.org/

http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Project_Management/Web_Based/Open_Source/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_messaging
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_conferencing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBSes

http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Chats_and_Forums/
http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Mailing_Lists/
http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/E-mail/Mailing_Lists/Hosted_Services/
http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/On_the_Web/Weblogs/
http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/On_the_Web/Message_Boards/

http://www.dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Searching/Directories/

Re: Re: Re: Status of the project

by novomente on: Mar 29 2012

Score 50%

Here are some links to look at (for You Mike). First set is some free Project Hosting sites (I searched through http://dmoz.org), second set is some Social Networking sites (for IT discussions - MyOpera is general talking) and third is Project Management Software hosting sites (github - free for open source, TikiWiki - free I think):

Project Hosting (free):
----------------------------------------
https://alioth.debian.org
http://www.berlios.de/

http://sourceforge.net/
http://freecode.com/

http://www.tigris.org/
http://gna.org/projects/savane/
http://gitorious.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembla

http://sharesource.org/

Social Networking Hosting:
----------------------------------------
http://www.ryze.com/faq.php
http://www.tigweb.org/about/
http://my.opera.com/community/

Project Management Software
----------------------------------------
https://github.com/plans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiki_Wiki_CMS_Groupware

BTW: Some comments back I talked about my health problems. It could look like I'm joking or something. But I was speaking as seriously as I could. Since health problems is not good subject to talk here, I omit it in future comments.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Status of the project

by user333 on: Mar 29 2012

Score 50%

Thank's for the links :) I have looked at sourceforge and berlios before, and here are my observations. Berlios announced that downloads are now hosted on sourceforge, so there is little differece as far as that goes. Sourceforge seems more complete and is more widely known than berlios, so that would be a plus for publicity. Berlios, however, has lists of developers that you can search through http://devcounter.berlios.de/index.php.

My choice is sourceforge, because it seems like the maintainers keep the site up to date better than berlios. Let me know if you don't like this choice.

Since we will be registering the project soon, should the project be called "fluide" still, or should we use a different name? I liked "guipo", and I wonder if we should check the laws on that to see if that would be an OK name. Cairo seems to get away with it, and Windows 95 was initially called Chicago, so maybe we can do it too.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Status of the project

by novomente on: Mar 30 2012

Score 50%

Sourceforge is good (maybe best). There is only one problem. Terms of hosting says that the project must release some code. I'm not sure if they keep us there if we only talk or provide some prototypes. But we can ask by email.

To the name of project. It could be anything. I was thinking on a name FluiDE and found out it could mean "Flexible Lingual (Liberating) Universal Interactive Desktop Environment". But it can be anything. I really did not devote much time to thinking about it. "guipo" sounds good too. Also "quede" could sound good - it is a Spain word which means "to be" in English (or Spanish "Que de" means "that" like in a sentence "person that rocks") and it can be "QueDE" for "Quick User Efficient Desktop Environment" or whatever. Also code name (such as "Chicago" was for "Windows 95") could be "Fontana" - it is a female name and also Italian word for "Fontaine" which is close to what "fluide" mean (Fontaine is streams of liquid - watter).

I must say that I was quick with choosing the examples and the examples are only for imagination purposes. I leave the finding out the good project word on You Mike :) And then I will only vote for some of Your choices.

Also I think that "FluiDE" (or "guipo") is a beautiful name for the final DE release. It could be chosen as a working name for our whole project and then used only for the final DE, while working project gets another code name. I really don't want to be the one choosing a name. But to be honest "FluiDE" I like better than "guipo" because of 2 reasons. First FluiDE is better spelling and reading, second it starts with letter "F" which is different from first letter of Gnome, KDE, Xfce, although Fluxbox starts with "F" too. Well this is a problem of a final DE name.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Status of the project

by user333 on: Apr 6 2012

Score 38%

I'm sorry I haven't replied in a while, but I have been thinking ;) Fluide could stand for Flexible Usable Innovative Desktop Environment. What do you think of this?

As soon as we have code, Sourceforge seems best with no questions(Now that I've thought about it some more). I think we should try the Google Group, though. Google has really improved things with the new interface, so it might not be so bad. If that doesn't turn out, maybe I could host a phpbb forum on my website. I'm not so sure about that though, because I don't want to be in a position where if I take my site down the project is dependent on it.

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FluiDE stand for ...

by novomente on: Apr 7 2012

Score 50%

"FLexible Usable Innovative Desktop Environment" sounds perfect. Although the word "Usable" could be better. That's because of course the DE must be usable, so it is a feature to must have. Try to think about the DE's characteristics. "FLexible" is perfect to be sure. "Innovative" is also perfect. But it still miss something to fully describe the project. I have 2 words in my mind as an example, but I won't write them here in order not to break your imagination ;)

Google Groups seems not perfect, because then we would have to move it to sourceforge. I agree with sourceforge (you have chosen great). My advice are to move to sourceforge imediately (we need only to ask for to be there without functional code for some time) or to stay here on *-look.org" and later move to sourceforge. Having discussions spread round the Internet is (by me) not good idea.

Re: FluiDE stand for ...

by novomente on: Apr 7 2012

Score 50%

The word "Usable" is not all bad. I think that you have chosen it because of GNOME3 or Ubuntu Unity user complaints. We can leave it there. I just note that both GNOME3 and Unity are still improving and once they will be usable without wide complaints. So the word "Usable" is a short term original feature. But we can use more words. Everybody knows that each project shortening has more than one meaning.

To tell some funny shortening: for example somebody named the "Windows NT" like "Windows No Thanks" although the project has many original explanations from Microsoft. ;)

Re: Re: FluiDE stand for ...

by user333 on: Apr 7 2012

Score 50%

Yes, I chose the word because of the Unity and Gnome 3 fights going on right now ;)

I sent a short email to sourceforge. I'll see what they reply.

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"Why Tabs Must Die" (from OMG! Ubuntu!)

by user333 on: Apr 7 2012

Score 50%

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/04/why-tabs-must-die/

I'm not sure if the rest of you read OMG! Ubuntu!, but this was an interesting article on window management.

I don't like the writer's mockup, but I think the main idea is right.

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Re: "Why Tabs Must Die" (from OMG! Ubuntu!)

by novomente on: Apr 8 2012

Score 50%

It's interesting. It is a programmer's point of view. In windows XP I also hated Ineternet Explorer to show multiple windows in a taskbar. That's why I switched to Firefox 1.0, because of tabbed browsing. But later I had problems where to go to switch to another window because I had 2 locations: the tabs in a Firefox and the Taskbar. It took me some time to learn it. Later in GNOME and KDE I found out multiple desktops as another feature. Today I use it very rarely. But I think that I have nice solution to all 3 problems: tabs, desktops, taskbar. It is a solution from the Pack of ideas I promissed to talk about. And right now I'm working on a (html javascript) mockup to show it. Although the more quick way would be to make a hand drawings and text, as seen on the OMG article. Maybe both would be good.

Re: Re: "Why Tabs Must Die" (from OMG! Ubuntu!)

by user333 on: Apr 9 2012

Score 50%

I hope to see the mockup soon :) Could you make a quick drawing while we wait, though?

Yes, I guess we do have a lot of organization methods on computers. Ideally, all that should be one seamless system, for windows, tabs, and desktops.

As I was thinking about this, it occurred to me that while we could spend lots of time on app launching, I really think that window management should be a priority, since it takes up most of our time working on the computer. So if we were to include one new idea in the DE, I think it should be a new window manager. We still should work on other things, but they are not nearly as central. Forgive me if I am stating the obvious, but then again I never really thought about it much before ;)

Coding a window manager is not as hard as it might seem, so it could be created very quickly if a developer knew X or Wayland well enough. Full integration would need a toolkit, but Linux is modular so that could be created later with an API to control the window manager.

I just thought I would mention this, since the author of "Why Tabs Must Die" suggested it to me. He said we might want to join the elementary project because they are working on a new DE. I'm not sure if FluiDE's goals are the same as elementary's, but maybe we should submit some of our ideas to them. I would be perfectly happy if some other DE used ideas we came up with. What do you think about doing that?

By the way, I'm still waiting for a reply from SourceForge. Emailing on Easter weekend probably wasn't a good idea on my part.

David, I've thought about it, and it definitely wouldn't be wise to rush the design like you pointed out. While we work on the 'real thing', I think we should devote some time for creating a proof of concept that doesn't have all the features, but can be used as a promotional tool. We can't achieve our long term goals without a larger team, so we'll have to set some short term ones, but we can still work on setting the long term goals too.

Happy Easter =)

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The reply from SourceForge: Good news!

by user333 on: Apr 10 2012

Score 50%

Someone from SourceForge wrote back, and although I think he misunderstood me, he doesn't say we can't have a project with no code temporarily. He answers our question when he says we are not forced to release code until we are ready. So I'm fairly sure that we are ok to register!

This is the reply to my email that asked if an open-source project could collaborate before code was released:

Quote:

We do not support private projects or repositories. We certainly can't force you to release the code before it's ready, but we don't really have a mechanism on our site for you to manage the development if it's not being done publicly.

Note that even if you're developing the code privately, once you release a binary, you must release the code for it as well. So, don't release any binaries until the corresponding source is ready as well.

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Registered on SF!

by user333 on: Apr 10 2012

Score 50%

https://sourceforge.net/p/fluide

We've got to set everything up now, but we are registered! We have a git repository, forms, a wiki, and lots more :) There are options to set up different tools and delete the current ones. For example, we could use SVN instead of Git, or set up a mailing list. So we aren't stuck with the options I chose!

We need to come up with a description on the project. Why don't we all write what we think the goals should be, and then compare them? Then we will know what we agree on.

I also added a subdomain, so we have an empty website at http://fluide.sourceforge.net.

I'm not sure how everything works yet, but I'll add you to the project if you let me know your SF username.

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SourceForge

by novomente on: Apr 10 2012

Score 50%

It is good news. As I saw on sourceforge, there are more project which are in a state of preparation or planning. The replay they sent you talks clearly about that the project must be open source. Fhew, glad to hear that ;)

My user name on SourceForge is "novomente".

Today I will have finished first part of animation describing the Desktop Environment I was talking about.