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Divided we Fail


Free Software
fyarballfyarball
Description:

I'M SICK OF THIS. STOP IT NOW.

I see it every day. GNOME VS. KDE, Linux VS. BSD, GNU/Linux VS. Linux, SUSE VS. Fedora VS. Ubuntu... The list goes on. Please, stop fighting everybody.

What is happening is more than a disagreement. It's World War 3. People are cussing and calling people names all over the Internet, and even in "The Real World". Just because someone uses KDE instead of GNOME, or Linux instead of BSD. You're all acting like two year olds.

If we keep this up, Microsoft will own the internet. We need to work together if we're going to EVER get ahead. Bill Gates probably is munching on popcorn watching us destroy ourselves.

I'm not telling you that you have to all work on the same project. After all, Free Software is about Freedom, and one very important Freedom is the Freedom of choice.

Hey GNOME and KDE guys, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some people will like one, and some will like the other. Some will decide they don't want either and pick XFCE or even stick to the console. It's not worth the fight. And as for Linux VS. BSD, they're both great, and people will use what they want. And it's not like it\'s impossible or even hard to design a piece of software that works flawlessly on both, as long as we're talking free open source.

STOP THE FIGHTING, so we can get back to the more important stuff, like stopping Microsoft from eating up the Web. So join this group if you're fed up like me over the fighting!

Members:60
Comments:25
Created:Sep 30 2008
Changed:Sep 30 2008
Readability:readable for everybody
Membership:everybody can join

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 100% Agreement

 
 by sabaal on: Oct 6 2008  
Score 50%
sabaalsabaal

I use KDE day-to-day, but I've recommended Gnome to about a third of the people I've converted, simply because I thought they would like it better or be more productive with it.

I understand why "GNU/Linux" is the technically correct term, and I agree that it is, but I still often use "Linux" alone for the sake of simplicity, and I don't feel bad doing so.

Honestly, I have no idea what BSD is, just that it's not what I use, and that's certainly no reason to hate it. Sadly, I have the feeling that far too many people as uninformed as I am think otherwise.

In short, these things are NOT opposites. Liking one is not equivalent to hating the other. The worst thing we can do in an open society is to sabotage our unity over petty things like preference in desktop environment. The title of this group really says it all, and I think it's time everyone took it to heart.


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 Re: 100% Agreement

 
 by maxtothemax on: Oct 7 2008  
Score 50%
maxtothemaxmaxtothemax

To be honest, different DEs are good for different things. KDE4 is beautiful, minimalist and elegant. GNOME is good if you're lazy (like me) and want to click as few times as possible (hence the seperate menus for applications, places, and system tools, plus shortcuts on the panel.) And if you want something light and fast, one of the *boxes is great. It really depends on what you want.


By the way, BSD stands for "Berkley Software Distribution," it's a direct descendant of AT&T 6th edition UNIX, and it was started at Berkley University. Whereas Linux was a complete rewrite.


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 Re: 100% Agreement

 
 by Fri13 on: Oct 8 2008  
Score 50%
Fri13inactive user

"I understand why "GNU/Linux" is the technically correct term, and I agree that it is, but I still often use "Linux" alone for the sake of simplicity, and I don't feel bad doing so."

If you really "understand" so, I suggest that you read all links what I have on my signature, after that you will understand the technicall correct "Linux" term ;-)

This group is right, we should not fight against each others... it is important that we stick together so we do not bash each others (that means by not throwing one specific distribution wallpapers/themes/brand all over the places! we can add wallpaper/themes/things about X but there is always sertain limits and when done over those, it turns bad!).

The deadly attack does not come outside of us who use Linux operating system and multiple different softwaresystems of it.. it comes from inside of our "family" and it is keeping the knive just close our heart.

If you want to destroy other country effectily, get them to fight each other first and then you can just "kill" the last man standing. Much easier in such way....

What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48
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 Re: 100% Agreement

 
 by sabaal on: Oct 13 2008  
Score 50%
sabaalsabaal

Wow, very informative. :)

Thanks for filling me in, guys. This is the reason I love the free community. If I were in a Windows forum or the like, I'd probably never hear and end to the insults, and I'd be forced to hop around with one foot in my mouth. :P


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 It's true!

 
 by vs8 on: Oct 11 2008  
Score 50%
vs8vs8
Home

We need to stop this nonsense. This is Linux or GNU/Linux or whaterver you wanna call it and that's all that matters. I use different DEs depending on the mood I'm at, sometimes I use KDE 4 or 3.5, Gnome or LXDE so on, so on. This is the land of the free and I just enjoy it.

If you like Ubuntu like me and you use Fedora or SUSE, what the hell use it! It's still Linux, at least it's not Mac or Windows!


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 Re: It's true!

 
 by jellymann on: Oct 11 2008  
Score 50%
jellymannjellymann

There are three computers that I use at home... right now they all have ubuntu just to see if it worked, but I plan on having one ubuntu, another running kubuntu, and another running FreeBSD.

I love the freedom, and frown upon people who despise other distros and kernels just because they're not what they use. I've used a number of distros and I liked all of them. I'm using ubuntu right now because it appears to be the only linux cd that isn't scratched beyond repair! And since I leanrt most of what I know about linux on ubuntu, I am quite familiar with it, but it doesn't mean I don't like other distros. I have come across Debian, SuSE, Lycoris, Redhat, CentOS, Puppy, DSL, Ubuntu, Kubuntu and Xubuntu, and I am pleased that there is such a wide variety of good distros to choose from, for every need.


:)


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 UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by wintermuteX on: Oct 12 2008  
Score 50%
wintermuteXwintermuteX

I thin that we shold use the tux symbol more often. Many linux distributions - one kernel. LOL we are not using splitix
but unix.


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 Re: UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by Fri13 on: Oct 12 2008  
Score 50%
Fri13inactive user

Actually, Linux is not UNIX Operating System... it is Unix-like operating system.

And Linux is not just a kernel. It would be just a kernel if it was a microkernel, but it is modular monolith kernel what makes it as operating system.

We should use more TUX logo because it is brand and logo of Operating System, not just of a kernel.

All other brands and logos, like Ubuntu and Fedora, are just logos of bigger products than just a operating systems, those are logos and brands of computer software systems, and those includes the Operating System called Linux, a Tux :-)

And UNIX is not exactly a one Operating System, it is bunch of Operating Systems. UNIX operating systems can be different, like HP-UX and now Apple's Darwin, both are real UNIX operating systems but still different Operating Systems and sometimes incompatible in source level, but usually just in binary level.

And Linux has spreaded to multiple "different" operating systems, because there is so many different distributor for it, but everyone offers same Operating System with other applications.

Like OpenSolaris and Linux, both share bretty much everything else, but Operating System is different (Linux vs OpenSolaris)

What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48
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 Re: Re: UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by wintermuteX on: Oct 12 2008  
Score 50%
wintermuteXwintermuteX

Passing over Your technicly correct talking, i hope that u got the point :)


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 Re: UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by fyarball on: Oct 13 2008  
Score 50%
fyarballfyarball

Tux is actually not the official logo of Linux, but is commonly regarded as the Linux mascot. Tux should only be used to represent the Linux kernel and not +free software in general because that of course leaves out *BSD and userspace +free software that may or may not be used with the Linux kernel. Using Tux together with the FreeBSD Daemon (He's a little red devil; "daemon" - "a" = "demon", get it?) would be more appropriate, though still incorrect.

+ The meaning of free used in this post is "free as in speech"


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 Re: Re: UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by Fri13 on: Oct 15 2008  
Score 50%
Fri13inactive user

Actually the TUX is the official mascot for an Linux kernel AND for a Linux Operating System.

Do you know why?

Because Monolith kernel is the operating system. Do not mistake it for marketing propaganda where they does not tell you that operating system is just a small part of computer software like Ubuntu. They sell you a OS but they do sell you lots of other software too!

Ubuntu includes more software than just a operating system, it has browsers, office softwares, mediaplayers, server software, commandline tools etc. Those all does not make the OS, they makes an software system, for computer.

There is misinformation that Linux is just a kernel and operating system is top of it, what needs the kernel and it would be Linux. It would be true if Linux would be a microkernel.

Microkernel is not operating system alone. Microkernel includes only small amount of features what are needed to get a operating system. All other needes OS services are on userland among other normal applications.

Monolith kernel is operating alone, because all the features and the OS services are included in kernel itself in kernel space.

And Linux was before 2.2 a macrokernel, what mean that everything was always in kernel itself. (macrokernel = different kind monolith kernel). 2.2 the Linux got changed to modular kernel where drivers etc could be stored to disk instead to RAM in start, but when needed, those could be readed from disk to RAM and be used.

Then there is other different kinds kernels, nano kernels and exokernels and those are similar like microkenel but just even smaller ones. Windows NT is so called "hybrid kernel" but such kernel does not exist. Windows NT's kernel is microkernel but the OS is designed littebit like an monolith kernel. All or some OS services can exist in kernel space where the microkernel exist, but those ain't together, like on monolith kernel. Hybrid kernel is just a marketing about a "new kernel" what it just is not, because it just is implented hybrid way, but use a microkernel and nothing else.

Linux kernel and Linux OS are the SAME THING!

The operating system got designed long time ago when you needed to get applications run on different machines. Before Operating Systems the applications were written for specific machines, like on embedded systems. You did not have OS so all the applications needed to know how to control hardware. Example of how to control magnetictape drive and how to get input from keyboard and send output to monitor. And different machines did it different way so you needed to rewrite all applications again for other machiens. Very very VERY dificult task for coders.

So someone got idea for software what would control the different machines and then application developers could just write applications what communicates with new software, what then talks to machine. So Application developers did not need anymore to know how the machine worked, it was task of OS developers. And applications could be after that run on different machines.

The new software idea got called as "Operating System", because it operates the machine and the software. It is the "Host software" or "Operator" and now today it is called as "Operating System", while other names are not used.

And the position and meaning of Operating System has not changed, it still stands between hardware and applications. It just gives for developers a "virtualmachine" what to use. Just like GNU tools needs a OS to work. Bash, Emacs, gcc etc, all GNU tools NEEDS an operating system before they can work. GNU has own operating system being developed since -70's and still it is not ready, it is called as "Hurd" but it is just a microkernel and other parts are on GNU tools, so Hurd+other GNU parts makes together a GNU OS and GNU software system when you include Gnome and all other GNU project applications with it.

Linux is the monolith kernel == Linux is the operating system
GNU/Linux != Operating System
GNU/Linux == OS + Development tools == Development platform.

To understand more, read my signature URL's.

What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48
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 Re: Re: Re: UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by Fri13 on: Oct 15 2008  
Score 50%
Fri13inactive user

And forgot to say, that Linux is not the mascot for software systems like Ubuntu, Gentoo or Mandriva. As everyone can see, those distributions has own logos.

Ubuntu has the "circle of life"
Gentoo has the "Cow"
Mandriva has the "Star"

Tux is not brand of those, but TUX is the brand of OS. What those software systems use.

Thats why it is very important to include the Tux logo and Linux name for those distributions because Ubuntu is not just the operating system, none of Ubuntu's own work is part of OS.

But as Linus has said, he does not mind that people calls their own products as they like. But they can not take Linux and start calling it as "Ubuntu". Because Ubuntu is not the kernel, and Canonical can not steal the code what Linux community has done.

What is Linux and GNU/Linux?
http://tinyurl.com/532kb8
http://tinyurl.com/mum9x
http://tinyurl.com/qhuhg
http://tinyurl.com/3uaq48
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 Re: Re: Re: Re: UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by fyarball on: Nov 5 2008  
Score 50%
fyarballfyarball

Actually, I meant using Tux to represent Free Software (NOT Linux, or Linux Distros) is a bad idea, although I obviously didn't say that well enough XD


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 UNIX vs SPLITIX

 
 by wintermuteX on: Oct 12 2008  
Score 50%
wintermuteXwintermuteX

i mean, i hope that its clear what i m talking about.


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 the greeks

 
 by JohnnyJu on: Oct 15 2008  
Score 50%
JohnnyJuJohnnyJu
TheLinuxBeau tyProject

there was a time when the greeks fought and killed each other, but they survived the persian invasion, through union and after getting friends again.
when the persians arrived near the coast, there was a messenger, who made the first marathon-sprint ever, he run 40km to warn everyone.
well, long story...

comparing all that OS's is a bit a waste of time, try to compare a strawberry with a kiwi.
or try to discuss about those in a forum over hundreds of pages...

but my question is:
what can such a group like this here do against it?
we can consolidate each other and discuss what we agree on, but, what can we do?
should we start with a logo?


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 Re: the greeks

 
 by areek on: Oct 15 2008  
Score 50%
areekareek

Nice logo would be nice start :)


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 Holy Wars

 
 by steviant on: Nov 3 2008  
Score 50%
steviantsteviant

Before you condemn the Holy Wars too much, consider this...

People fight over these things because they care, developers even more so, because for them it is a matter of pride.

Those who you see pouring the most scorn on other platforms are those who care the most. We need to find a way to assist people to turn negative attitudes into positive evangelism for their chosen platform.

If (for example) you believe that KDE is better than Gnome, but that Gnome gets too much attention from the press, then the negative course of action is to complain and pour scorn on Gnome. The positive course of action is to do what you can to whip up excitement about KDE. Demonstrate it's capabilities on YouTube, write letters to magazine editors, comment on blogs.

We can't afford to alienate those who respond most vehemently to trolls spewing misinformation, because they're the people with the most emotionally invested in these platforms.

A more sophisticated version of "turn that frown around" is the best approach to those who seem to be "haters". Most of the time, what they really hate are trolls and FUD.


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